Decreasing minting fees to 0.15%

Integrations of new chains might be controlled by the team but thats not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about utilisation of renbtc on defi protocols. This is up to the market and the biggest driver for integrations is TVL and volume - not fees being earned by darknodes.

Likewise, I have already stated that I am aware TVL growth is not inline with the long term decentralisation plan. However, at the moment we are centralised and will continue to be for a while. Therefore there is no better time to try and experiment with lower fees to help boost our TVL, gain more defi integrations, and then start to see the volume grow naturally on renVM.

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Totally agree with this; members in favor of maxing out fees right now completely ignore the fact ren isnt economically secure. Not only that but shunning away these arb bots is idiotic. Darknode owners want volume to go through their nodes which should imply that these same people would want to cater to bots and protocols like KeeperDao. Having the greycore is a great backstop as we can use them for safety while we experiment with fees. To conclude here is a quick chart that may help with a visual of darknode owners actual btc value in relation to major economical events. https://www.tradingview.com/x/SaybFfan/

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I am confused. To become economically secure we would need to reduce TVL, not increase it. We would need REN go up, which will happen if darknodes earn rewards. Pure volume and pure TVL do not serve any purpose.

By the way, volume and TVL are beyond my wildest dreams for this stage.

I don’t see how TVL is driving integrations. Would you please elaborate?

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When defi protocols are deciding which assets to add for staking, collateral etc - they are picking assets with the highest liquidity and trading volume. Therefore YFI, SNX etc are regularly being selected, along with wBTC.

Currently Renbtc is largely left in the cold since we only have about 1/10th of the liquidity of wBTC. With a TVL of $435m, it simply doesn’t make that much sense to add us compared to wBTC’s $3.7bn of liquidity.

Therefore we we need to achieve a certain level of liquidity and TVL in order to be added to defi protocols. These in turn will help drive volume through RenVM and help boost our TVB. But without the sufficient liquidity to begin with, I think we will continue to struggle to improve our volume levels.

Therefore, while we have the Greycore securing RenVM, we must take the opportunity to reduce our fees and encourage an increase in TVL until we achieve critical mass and start to be accepted on almost every defi protocol. Once we are of sufficient size and accepted everywhere, and are preparing for full decentralisation, then we should look at increasing fees etc to maintain the required 3:1 ratio

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Not disagreeing with you that increasing TVL is important but the assumption that the mint fees we’ve implemented are the cause for the decreasing TVL and conversely, lowering mint fees will increase TVL is simply not very convincing. Nobody’s come up with a model based on projected BTC yield destinations that a 0.1% difference is going to move the needle by how much.

Don’t you think a good portion of that wBTC causes volume on RenVM through curve.fi or wbtc.cafe anyways? Why does it matter in which incarnation BTC sits in those staking contracts?

Personally, I have some wBTC on Bancor that initially went through RenVM.

We have to try it sometimes, though. Bridge v2 discount weeks or something. ;o)

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Look what heppened since the begining of higher mint fees while all wrapped continued to growth up to the end of november.
It was thought by the team as a test to measure how TVL reacted and monitor the elasticity of demand. My point is that in big numbers of TVL (2-3 billions), it is not as influential as in this general present.

Thinking ¿who is firt, the egg or the chiken?, my view is we are not going to stronger numbers without allowing the free growth of TVL and consequently (in a bull or steady market) increase the developmet of integrations, velocity of volume, token price, nodes operational, incomes.

I firmly believe at a TVL of 2 or 3 billions it won’t be a problem the TVL in terms of network security, because of the translation to TVB and token price. If it’s not the case, we, as Renchad say, are still in conditions to manage before going to full descentralization.

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Just putting this out there, and curious if there are any opinions that view this info as positive?. Though of course there is more going on here than the gut reaction of “fees are too high.” Fud campaigns pertaining to current centralized state for instance. And there are arguments that TVL isn’t a metric of health as we covet velocity… but the graph shows a continuous exit out of RenVM - should we consider a mint fee reduction, or let it play out longer?

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I have had problems with our “experimentation” with mint/burn fees from the beginning, as I never really saw any methodology we would be using to effectively measure impact, or how all of this relates to our long-term business strategy. The complexity of DeFi is infinite, experimenting with mint/burn fees when everything else is kept constant probably has some value. But within DeFi, what is constant, except radical change?

Here’s a thought experiment. Let’s reduce mint fees to .15% next epoch. Meanwhile, Badger Bridge goes live and we see 2x volume. In parallel, the price of BTC spikes to 75k USD. How much of that rising volume is from a reduction in mint fees? Anyone? I would love to hear your methodology now to measure this impact, so we can apply it before we make another change.

Another issue I have is understanding what our thresholds are for TVL to total REN bonded value to ensure safety of the network. Because of more research from the Ren team, my understanding is we are in a much more favorable position now, meaning we can manage a higher TVL without a degradation in network safety. Great! What is that new threshold? Do we know, yet? Isn’t this rather important input before we devise a methodology to measure changes in mint/burn fees, as it impacts how we define success?

Another issue I have is the overall strategy of Ren longer term for renBTC (and other assets). Are we going to build renBTC into a brand? Or are we going to become critical infrastructure that is white labeled by our partners? So it’s really Badger that will have BadgerBTC (eventually), which is actually renBTC in the background. But Badger users don’t know or care. If that’s the case, what are our partners’ input on pricing? I would assume Badger (and other key partners) would want some commitments on Ren’s pricing structure, correct? Can you imagine the embarrassment for a Ren partner to build a bridge and promote a new initiative (e.g. Badger Bridge) and then learn Ren will be doubling or tripling mint/burn prices for their users? Rather awkward, I would assume.

I’ve always assumed renBTC longer term would melt away, and we’d have BadgerBTC and other tokenized components that would use RenVM to facilitate their cross chain interactions. My guess is our partners would prefer that too, longer term. We help their branding, we help Badger (and others) build out their own tokenized BTC options. Ren would be happy to be the silent partner hidden in the background, helping our partners grow. Perhaps we have an agreement that Badger uses a “Powered by RenVM” or whatever somewhere, similar to Intel Inside. And hence with this strategy, mint/burn fees never really mattered too much to me in the short term, provided we had fair pricing more or less to ensure adequate traffic. The key for me has always been continued technical innovation, network safety, decentralization (!), and developing partnerships that we can leverage in the future. And those strategic partners will help guide us to an optimal pricing strategy.

Having said that, perhaps my vision is totally wrong, and the community believes we need to build renBTC into a brand, that a partner first strategy is not the long term vision. Ok, in that case, my assumptions are wrong and mint/burn pricing strategies will likely be different. But that strategy should be clear before we start to “experiment” with pricing.

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Perhaps a timeline superimposing this tvl graph, a mint volume graph, a burn volume graph, and then list chronologically all events we know of that affected defi, RenVM, and RenVM integration. Maybe do the same thing with wBTC and see if anything stands out?

The only thing that has resulted in me being repetitive ad nauseam in the study of economics is the constant CETERIS PARIBUS. Evaluate the behavior of a variable while all the others remain constant.

In this ecosystem (at this time) any methodological research attempt is impossible (or possible in studies based on the use of on chain data and not external variables). In terms of statistical science, it is a stormy sea. For this reason, perhaps one of the ways to approach the discussion about the reduction of mint-fees is by the negative. ¿Will there be more data in other epochs that allow us to make better decisions? ¿Is there a potential harm in targeting down (and not up, where there would be)? I think the answer is no in both. I do not fully agree on the short-term “public effects” of downward rate movements, thinking of a much greater potential benefit if the objective is to provide certainty, fix values, and provide a less expensive service. In this vision, increasing fees would be poisoning the network and maintaining them would continue to meditate on inaction on the causes of BTC’s migration to other platforms.

I think we all agree that being the silence partner is the best way renVM will succed. That implies to “share” the income, and a scheme of 0.15% (Ren VM) + 0.10% (integrations) is reasonable, below the percentages claimed by e.g. wbtc, uniswap, snx (speaking of the ecosystem).

No discussion about what number 1, 2, 3, 4 are:
Continuing technical innovation
Network safety
Decentralization
Developing partnership
The economics and in particular the RenVM economic model should be next. Even though it is not valid in statistical terms, the graph as of 20-10 is eloquent in visual terms. Let’s not underestimate the TVL because despite not being the main metric (it does not generate any income per se) but it is a key factor in positive feedback with the TVB, Price, Income, Nodes Operational. It is liquidity, it is market share. We all know about the functioning of RenVM, Let’s get on the market side: lower costs, increase public exposure. The market is contagious. Networks are exponentially contagious (network effect).

Let’s take a step towards what is going to be inevitable in the long term.

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I’m very strongly behind this move to lower mint fees. We have now had 6 months at the current fee level with rewards largely flatlining throughout that period. I think Renbtc does need to become its own brand, and increase its liquidity if it wants to create its own most against the many other pretenders starting to come onto the market. I think that is best achieved by lowering mint fees and hopefully increasing Renbtc’s liquidity.

I also think that if we want to have partners integrate our bridges, and for RenVM to eventually underpin the whole crypto universe, silently moving billions of dollars behind the scene, then our fees need to be low enough to avoid friction. I think it’s similar to binance’s early trading fees strategy. Entice people in with lower fees to get a smaller piece of a much much larger pie.

Please can we start experimenting with lower fees!

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@Rentard, just for me to understand you better, let’s say fees were lowered and revenue does not increase but decreases instead, would you like to raise the fees again? If yes, after how long?

I am personally hesitant about this until greycore is launched simply cause I don’t think the fees matter that much at this stage. When greycore is launched and we get more integrations based on renVM being more decentralized it will be easier to evaluate how the market perceives renVM.

If you look at BSC there are lower fees (0.1) but not really any activity at the moment. Granted BSC is not the best example, maybe worth waiting until Solana is added as hostchain and see what the volume is there?

Every new chain starts with 0.1 on mints/burns so it will be easy to see if Solana suddenly gets a lot of volume while ethereum doesn’t. Also at that stage it will be easier to lower fees to mint on ethreum as it is not the only revenue source.

Right now you want to potentially reduce the main revenue source based on experimentation, I’m not sure people will be happy if rewards suddenly drop and we get another round of fudstorm :slight_smile:

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I would recommend raising fees again under that scenario yes since I think that would show that volume is not determined by fee level in any meaningful way. However by not testing we simply don’t know. As I’ve stated elsewhere we could always market it as a promotional reduction in fees for a limited time only. Gives us the scope to increase back again or keep them low as we wish.

What if fee revenue doubles with volume doing a 4x because now all the arbitrageurs can come out to play. Think how that would help grow the project, renBtc as a brand, and provide some momentum to our daily volume.

Initial fee increases were proposed as a form of testing to see how the market reacts. Now that fees are maxed out there’s a lack of desire from some quarters to test out lower fees, due presumably to a fear of losing out on node income. Whereas the opposite could very well be true - that we are currently holding back volume and Node revenue by charging too high a fee. Without further testing we simply will never know. What we do know is bitcoin volume has levelled out at these fees for the time being. Now let’s find out what happens at other fees.

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I strongly agree with this RFC and think we should RIP this asap. As pointed out, renBTC has lost significant market share over our experimental period and some of our integrators and once active arb bots have slowed as well. I initially voted to increase the fee so we could test the market and work to bring TVL and TVB closer to our desired 3:1 ratio. With new developments under way reducing/negating the need for the 3:1 bonding ratio and the fact that the market has spoken in regards to the fee increase, I’d say RIP003 has run its course. After all, its original premise was that it would have been replaced long ago.

At this point I think our goal should be increasing renBTC market share, liquidity, and use cases.

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@Squints @Rentard, do you think it’s reasonable to wait until Solana integration is live before lowering fees? That way we can mitigate the risk of suddenly reducing rewards for darknodes and it shouldn’t be much longer until solana integration is live.

There is of course the risk that Solana integration don’t bring much volume initially and we might as well change fees now, I’m not sure to be honest, it just feels a bit premature and reactionary right now.

I personally won’t be against whatever community/ren team decides, I don’t think the difference will be big but could be very wrong ofc.

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Do we have any market info on who is using RenVM and why, at least for larger mints and burns (the ones that really move the needle each epoch)? If not, is there any way to find out, or at least make some educated guesses? I would really be curious to know who and why whales choose RenVM (10+ BTC transactions per mint/burn), and then try to understand how elastic these use cases are in regards to mint/burn fees.

I don’t know of anything but that is a great idea. It would be easy enough to add a feature to one of the bots to track where the renBTC or BTC goes so we can better understand our clients in general.

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That sounds like a good idea to wait until then provided the Solana integration timeline is reasonable and somewhat known. Personally I don’t think this is premature simply because when we did agree to raise the fees it was with the understanding that it would be revised sooner than this.

Mostly I’d like to see fees a little lower to further incentivize integrators by allowing room for them to make a couple extra bps on top of us without transactions becoming prohibitively expensive for the users like with MEW. Granted our fees aren’t the main reason with them.

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